Uuuugh. I have been Catholic my whole life and attended many a conference and sadly I have been disappointed by a lot of speakers, not just priests. I think sometimes there is this reverence or adoring of 'Catholic celebrity' that we cling to. Like anyone who is speaking positively about the church on a larger platform needs to be supported. But that can lead us to overlook problematic jokes, ideas, or opinions. I'm glad you're writing about this. Have you considered writing to the priest to voice your concerns in a charitable way? I feel like this was charitable in its approach, so you have a gift for it. Maybe he needs to hear that this is inappropriate. Thanks for sharing this. And thanks for staying in the Church. It is full of flawed people, but it is also beautiful. Praying for you and for this priest.
Thank you so much for the comment! I agree, that sometimes it's almost like "yes, someone who agrees with me on some really important stuff!" Which can make it difficult when something that's said is concerning. And yes, I am definitely in prayer about sending something to the speaker. I'm so glad to hear that the tone of my thoughts on it came across as charitable. That's always the goal, and that's really helpful to hear as I'm discerning this part.
This just passed across my feed and I thought I’d add a comment on the modesty section coming from my time living in Italy. Most churches have fairly strict modesty rules there, some enforced more strictly than others. It runs from a sign at the door with a picture indicating that knees/shoulders need to be covered, etc. The bigger churches (especially in high tourist areas) will actually have someone outside physically turning people away without knees/shoulders covered. Some, will have a large shawl thing which people can rent to drape to cover the upper leg or shoulders. All that background to say, I am a view opinion that mentioning to somebody that they’re not appropriately dressed for particular place isn’t bad but it’s better if you can then follow that up with and here is a whatever to help you to be more appropriately covered.
Yes- I haven't been to Italy but I'm familiar with that! I think that's so helpful to have the expectations clearly posted somewhere, and then to have a solution to offer people who didn't come prepared. I'd imagine people could do something like that on wedding invitations even. I got confirmed at a large Cathedral and there were some very concrete rules for how we were to dress for that occasion, and it was very helpful to know in advance. All of that can be so good vs. the tone of the priest's comment which felt like he made it more about his own potential lust and was so void of humility on what is undoubtedly a sensitive topic that it was off-putting.
Thanks so much for this article and for your transparency in sharing how you felt. I wasn't at the talk, but as a reader of this blog I must say my heart fell to my knees multiple times. I audibly whispered "Oh no!" quite frequently.
My heart hurt for so many people. For you having to hear these things, for the people who laughed at the distasteful jokes, for the priest who must believe it's acceptable to poke fun at Catholics during some the most vulnerable and humbling moments of their existence.
I even felt compassion for my own experience, having returned to the Catholic faith after a decades long absence. I don't always know what to do or not to do. To imagine such an intricate part of my faith journey being made fun of in a stand-up comedy type of setting leaves me feeling sad and, quite frankly, unsafe.
The jokes about the way people dress seem completely harsh, uncompassionate and inappropriate. I concur with all you shared about Jesus and the way he would respond in these situations. When I read about the talk you had to sit through, I felt the priest's comments were a breeding ground for mistrust and fear. How could anyone who listened not wonder if they would be fodder for his next comedy talk featuring other sensitive topics?
When Jesus said in Matthew 11: 28-30, "Come to me, all you who labor and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am meek and humble of heart; and you will find rest for yourselves. For my yoke is easy, and my burden light....." He didn't include a dress code.
I agree with your comments on showing reverence, and learning about personal dignity and the way our Lord loves us. I can relate to your personal experiences, for I was once there, too. Every precious person's life has intrinsic value. Not one of us has completely arrived at the place of spiritual or moral perfection.
We all need laughter and it's a gift from God to have humor and the ability to look at ourselves in a lighthearted way. I don't feel it's ever appropriate to use humor to diminish the value of human beings and, sadly, it seems the priest's attempts at getting a laugh were at the expense of the dignity of the people in his circle of influence.
We all need the Lord's graces and guidance in overcoming our sinful nature, and in using our God-given instincts for His good and for the good of our fellow man. I appreciate your insights greatly. this was, indeed, a good reminder that we within the church are imperfect, but God's church isn't defined by our imperfections.
I will use this information to examine my own heart as I strive to see everyone through the lenses of God's perfect love.
Thank you for reading! I understand deeply the need for reverence and also feel so deeply in the need for the church to recognize the dignity in everyone, especially those who are trying to be reverent and those who don't understand what they should be reverent for. Jokes and judgment cannot be the way we lead on either of these things!
I had a similar experience in my RCIA class. The deacon was talking about how to receive reverently. He was very serious about how to receive in the hand and was mostly serious when he explained how to receive on the tongue. But he did make jokes about receiving on the tongue, which actually kept me from doing that for a long time because I was afraid of how I would be perceived.
Separating people from Church is something I still struggle to do. It's confusing and heartbreaking.
I’m so sorry that was part of your RCIA class! These things stick with us don’t they… The separation of people from Church is exactly as you say- confusing and heartbreaking. But I hope, if we can persist in seeing both things in their right place, that it will also be part of helping us to love others better and the Church even more.
While it is important to be able to laugh at ourselves, the line where it crosses over to mockery and judgement can be easy to miss. And you’re right, it is especially damaging coming from our spiritual leaders. Especially not about something as intimate as receiving the Eucharist. I have seen a similar talk including humorous descriptions of reception on the tongue, but a little more from the practical angle of “as a minister of the Eucharist, there are some ways to approach the sacrament that make it easier to receive on the tongue safely and hygienically” and I felt like we mostly laughed together in calling out a common awkwardness that sometimes happen in this most sacred of moments, while getting practical tips a generation that was primarily encouraged to receive on the hand never learned during first communion class.
Part of my background was in some groups that were incredibly devout and loving, but had a temptation to become overly prescriptive with a narrow rules of modesty, devotional practices etc. Part of it was very helpful, especially as a way of tangibly and visibly living our Catholic faith in a way that is different from the secular world and as way to show that it matters. Like following the rules of etiquette, I really appreciate priests and laypeople who care enough about the details to comport themselves at Mass in their dress and manner and care for the rubrics. The details matter. It’s a shared language of reverence, where we as a community can physically express our shared faith and nurture and having some basic guidelines or examples of appropriate attire and practice can unify us better than a vague principle like “be respectful”.
However, grace must flow deeper into the heart, and just following any set the Catholic social cultural norms will not get you to Heaven. When they are used as a shibboleth to test whether you are part of the True Serious Believers crowd and exclude or mock those who do not conform to our liking, they become a poison to the whole community and a stumbling block to exclude visitors or those struggling.
I’ve had to recalibrate my internal sense of what’s appropriate or required for modesty, expressions of piety and the like at different times judging by whether a practice is helping or hurting my growth in faith and ability to be charitable to those around me. I know I’ve erred on being too strict and judgmental as well as being too lax and permissive with myself at various times. There is a both/and balance in Catholicism that can be delicate to strike but also larger then most people realize and we can always use a charitable reprimand when we start moving off target.
Thank you for such thoughtful comments! I can relate to so much of what you wrote. Interesting that you've heard another talk that addressed things with humor that seems like it landed better on the teaching side of things. I wish that had been the case for the one I was at. The both/ands in our faith is one of my favorite things about it, but definitely delicate to balance at times!
Modesty is something I lose sleep over as a mother of daughters.
I come from it from the opposite angle-- someone who largely dressed in shapeless t-shirts and baggy skirts for years because I was scrupulously concerned about not showing any of my body. Interestingly, the remedy was the same - I got more comfortable with clothing once I was seriously dating/ got married and felt safe and secure with my husband.
I just hope I can pass on the essentials to my daughters without leaving a scar one way or the other.
Oh my goodness yes- the pendulum is so easily swung in one direction or the other! My oldest is in middle school, and whenever she asks me questions about if something is okay to wear to different kinds of events, I find myself often saying "your body is good" as part of that discussion. We also talk a lot about dignity. We can watch for signs that things might be going awry one way or another but I don't know that I'll know if she developed a deeper, healthier understanding of these things until later. Praying for all of us mothers!
Thank you for sharing this. I know the feeling of cringe at mass/Catholic talks. I had a priest earlier this year make a joke at the end of mass and the punchline boiled down to “it’s better to be a prostitute than a Protestant” and I was so so disappointed. What about the converts at the mass? What if I had invited a Protestant friend to mass with me? As you said, we need to remember to separate those moments/disappointing people from our faith/the good that coexists with the bad in individuals. And that’s tough. On the modesty side, that’s just so…ugh. It’s so difficult for women to even have a healthy concept of what is “modesty” given the societal pressure we face. It’s not like most women who wear what might be deemed immodest clothing are deliberately thinking they want to be immodest-the formation is just so lacking and the context of the conversation so warped that beginning with rules before love will make no sense to anyone. For me, as you described, wearing nicer/more modest clothing to mass and in general proceeded from love-love of the Eucharist, and love of myself and my worth. All this to say-great reflection and I really love reading your thoughts as a convert-it’s such a needed and helpful perspective!
Yes, that separation is something I didn't realize the importance of until about a year ago but am so passionate about now. People new to the church or visiting for the first time will likely not have any context on how to to pull those things apart and they might never come back.
When I was talking to my husband about the modesty part of the talk, he commented on how many people at that talk are probably going to go back to their parishes now and feel empowered to sneer at women who show up to mass immodestly dressed because it was verbally sanctioned by a priest.
That was part of why I ultimately shared these thoughts- I know I don't have the reach of the priest who gave the talk, but counter points about the importance of discerning whether or not a particular messages from those with a platform are edifying, and permission to set those messages aside if they are not, I hope will in some way be helpful.
It’s a lifetime’s work to learn and practice I think. And very true. Very insightful of your husband, and so sad to contemplate too. I’m so glad you decided to share-you’re listening to the Spirit and helping God bring good out of a less than ideal situation. You bring the loaves and fishes, God does the rest.
Uuuugh. I have been Catholic my whole life and attended many a conference and sadly I have been disappointed by a lot of speakers, not just priests. I think sometimes there is this reverence or adoring of 'Catholic celebrity' that we cling to. Like anyone who is speaking positively about the church on a larger platform needs to be supported. But that can lead us to overlook problematic jokes, ideas, or opinions. I'm glad you're writing about this. Have you considered writing to the priest to voice your concerns in a charitable way? I feel like this was charitable in its approach, so you have a gift for it. Maybe he needs to hear that this is inappropriate. Thanks for sharing this. And thanks for staying in the Church. It is full of flawed people, but it is also beautiful. Praying for you and for this priest.
Thank you so much for the comment! I agree, that sometimes it's almost like "yes, someone who agrees with me on some really important stuff!" Which can make it difficult when something that's said is concerning. And yes, I am definitely in prayer about sending something to the speaker. I'm so glad to hear that the tone of my thoughts on it came across as charitable. That's always the goal, and that's really helpful to hear as I'm discerning this part.
This just passed across my feed and I thought I’d add a comment on the modesty section coming from my time living in Italy. Most churches have fairly strict modesty rules there, some enforced more strictly than others. It runs from a sign at the door with a picture indicating that knees/shoulders need to be covered, etc. The bigger churches (especially in high tourist areas) will actually have someone outside physically turning people away without knees/shoulders covered. Some, will have a large shawl thing which people can rent to drape to cover the upper leg or shoulders. All that background to say, I am a view opinion that mentioning to somebody that they’re not appropriately dressed for particular place isn’t bad but it’s better if you can then follow that up with and here is a whatever to help you to be more appropriately covered.
Yes- I haven't been to Italy but I'm familiar with that! I think that's so helpful to have the expectations clearly posted somewhere, and then to have a solution to offer people who didn't come prepared. I'd imagine people could do something like that on wedding invitations even. I got confirmed at a large Cathedral and there were some very concrete rules for how we were to dress for that occasion, and it was very helpful to know in advance. All of that can be so good vs. the tone of the priest's comment which felt like he made it more about his own potential lust and was so void of humility on what is undoubtedly a sensitive topic that it was off-putting.
Thanks so much for this article and for your transparency in sharing how you felt. I wasn't at the talk, but as a reader of this blog I must say my heart fell to my knees multiple times. I audibly whispered "Oh no!" quite frequently.
My heart hurt for so many people. For you having to hear these things, for the people who laughed at the distasteful jokes, for the priest who must believe it's acceptable to poke fun at Catholics during some the most vulnerable and humbling moments of their existence.
I even felt compassion for my own experience, having returned to the Catholic faith after a decades long absence. I don't always know what to do or not to do. To imagine such an intricate part of my faith journey being made fun of in a stand-up comedy type of setting leaves me feeling sad and, quite frankly, unsafe.
The jokes about the way people dress seem completely harsh, uncompassionate and inappropriate. I concur with all you shared about Jesus and the way he would respond in these situations. When I read about the talk you had to sit through, I felt the priest's comments were a breeding ground for mistrust and fear. How could anyone who listened not wonder if they would be fodder for his next comedy talk featuring other sensitive topics?
When Jesus said in Matthew 11: 28-30, "Come to me, all you who labor and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am meek and humble of heart; and you will find rest for yourselves. For my yoke is easy, and my burden light....." He didn't include a dress code.
I agree with your comments on showing reverence, and learning about personal dignity and the way our Lord loves us. I can relate to your personal experiences, for I was once there, too. Every precious person's life has intrinsic value. Not one of us has completely arrived at the place of spiritual or moral perfection.
We all need laughter and it's a gift from God to have humor and the ability to look at ourselves in a lighthearted way. I don't feel it's ever appropriate to use humor to diminish the value of human beings and, sadly, it seems the priest's attempts at getting a laugh were at the expense of the dignity of the people in his circle of influence.
We all need the Lord's graces and guidance in overcoming our sinful nature, and in using our God-given instincts for His good and for the good of our fellow man. I appreciate your insights greatly. this was, indeed, a good reminder that we within the church are imperfect, but God's church isn't defined by our imperfections.
I will use this information to examine my own heart as I strive to see everyone through the lenses of God's perfect love.
Thank you for reading! I understand deeply the need for reverence and also feel so deeply in the need for the church to recognize the dignity in everyone, especially those who are trying to be reverent and those who don't understand what they should be reverent for. Jokes and judgment cannot be the way we lead on either of these things!
I had a similar experience in my RCIA class. The deacon was talking about how to receive reverently. He was very serious about how to receive in the hand and was mostly serious when he explained how to receive on the tongue. But he did make jokes about receiving on the tongue, which actually kept me from doing that for a long time because I was afraid of how I would be perceived.
Separating people from Church is something I still struggle to do. It's confusing and heartbreaking.
I’m so sorry that was part of your RCIA class! These things stick with us don’t they… The separation of people from Church is exactly as you say- confusing and heartbreaking. But I hope, if we can persist in seeing both things in their right place, that it will also be part of helping us to love others better and the Church even more.
While it is important to be able to laugh at ourselves, the line where it crosses over to mockery and judgement can be easy to miss. And you’re right, it is especially damaging coming from our spiritual leaders. Especially not about something as intimate as receiving the Eucharist. I have seen a similar talk including humorous descriptions of reception on the tongue, but a little more from the practical angle of “as a minister of the Eucharist, there are some ways to approach the sacrament that make it easier to receive on the tongue safely and hygienically” and I felt like we mostly laughed together in calling out a common awkwardness that sometimes happen in this most sacred of moments, while getting practical tips a generation that was primarily encouraged to receive on the hand never learned during first communion class.
Part of my background was in some groups that were incredibly devout and loving, but had a temptation to become overly prescriptive with a narrow rules of modesty, devotional practices etc. Part of it was very helpful, especially as a way of tangibly and visibly living our Catholic faith in a way that is different from the secular world and as way to show that it matters. Like following the rules of etiquette, I really appreciate priests and laypeople who care enough about the details to comport themselves at Mass in their dress and manner and care for the rubrics. The details matter. It’s a shared language of reverence, where we as a community can physically express our shared faith and nurture and having some basic guidelines or examples of appropriate attire and practice can unify us better than a vague principle like “be respectful”.
However, grace must flow deeper into the heart, and just following any set the Catholic social cultural norms will not get you to Heaven. When they are used as a shibboleth to test whether you are part of the True Serious Believers crowd and exclude or mock those who do not conform to our liking, they become a poison to the whole community and a stumbling block to exclude visitors or those struggling.
I’ve had to recalibrate my internal sense of what’s appropriate or required for modesty, expressions of piety and the like at different times judging by whether a practice is helping or hurting my growth in faith and ability to be charitable to those around me. I know I’ve erred on being too strict and judgmental as well as being too lax and permissive with myself at various times. There is a both/and balance in Catholicism that can be delicate to strike but also larger then most people realize and we can always use a charitable reprimand when we start moving off target.
Thank you for such thoughtful comments! I can relate to so much of what you wrote. Interesting that you've heard another talk that addressed things with humor that seems like it landed better on the teaching side of things. I wish that had been the case for the one I was at. The both/ands in our faith is one of my favorite things about it, but definitely delicate to balance at times!
Modesty is something I lose sleep over as a mother of daughters.
I come from it from the opposite angle-- someone who largely dressed in shapeless t-shirts and baggy skirts for years because I was scrupulously concerned about not showing any of my body. Interestingly, the remedy was the same - I got more comfortable with clothing once I was seriously dating/ got married and felt safe and secure with my husband.
I just hope I can pass on the essentials to my daughters without leaving a scar one way or the other.
Oh my goodness yes- the pendulum is so easily swung in one direction or the other! My oldest is in middle school, and whenever she asks me questions about if something is okay to wear to different kinds of events, I find myself often saying "your body is good" as part of that discussion. We also talk a lot about dignity. We can watch for signs that things might be going awry one way or another but I don't know that I'll know if she developed a deeper, healthier understanding of these things until later. Praying for all of us mothers!
Thank you for sharing this. I know the feeling of cringe at mass/Catholic talks. I had a priest earlier this year make a joke at the end of mass and the punchline boiled down to “it’s better to be a prostitute than a Protestant” and I was so so disappointed. What about the converts at the mass? What if I had invited a Protestant friend to mass with me? As you said, we need to remember to separate those moments/disappointing people from our faith/the good that coexists with the bad in individuals. And that’s tough. On the modesty side, that’s just so…ugh. It’s so difficult for women to even have a healthy concept of what is “modesty” given the societal pressure we face. It’s not like most women who wear what might be deemed immodest clothing are deliberately thinking they want to be immodest-the formation is just so lacking and the context of the conversation so warped that beginning with rules before love will make no sense to anyone. For me, as you described, wearing nicer/more modest clothing to mass and in general proceeded from love-love of the Eucharist, and love of myself and my worth. All this to say-great reflection and I really love reading your thoughts as a convert-it’s such a needed and helpful perspective!
Yes, that separation is something I didn't realize the importance of until about a year ago but am so passionate about now. People new to the church or visiting for the first time will likely not have any context on how to to pull those things apart and they might never come back.
When I was talking to my husband about the modesty part of the talk, he commented on how many people at that talk are probably going to go back to their parishes now and feel empowered to sneer at women who show up to mass immodestly dressed because it was verbally sanctioned by a priest.
That was part of why I ultimately shared these thoughts- I know I don't have the reach of the priest who gave the talk, but counter points about the importance of discerning whether or not a particular messages from those with a platform are edifying, and permission to set those messages aside if they are not, I hope will in some way be helpful.
It’s a lifetime’s work to learn and practice I think. And very true. Very insightful of your husband, and so sad to contemplate too. I’m so glad you decided to share-you’re listening to the Spirit and helping God bring good out of a less than ideal situation. You bring the loaves and fishes, God does the rest.